Amp gurus...I'm still Iffy On The Custom 20 Combo...

[mapleleaf14]

Amp gurus...I seek your knowledge!


I absolutely love the clean channel on the amp, but while I'm getting great "70's Kiss" tone from the lead channel that I really love, that's with the lead channel volume knob all the way up...I thought there would be more gain on this amp.


Granted, I am playing at "bedroom" levels so the Masters are both really low (live in a condo and can't crank it up)...is this why I'm not getting as much gain as I thought I'd get? I am still thinking about the Rivera Rock Crusher attenuator...it really seems to not suck tone like so many other attenuators I've heard, and if having the masters so low is the reason I'm lacking gain, I'm OK with needing to buy the Rivera.


I can run a Boss Metal Core pedal in front on the clean channel and get the "heavy" sound that I want, which obviously still gives me the great clean channel and also the "70's-Kiss" tone I love so this is probably the way to go, but I guess I just thought I'd get all the gain I needed from just the amp.


I thought about returning the Custom 20 for the Archon 25, but for one thing I don't like the "plum" version of the Archon nearly as much as the plum Custom 20 I have, and I'd give up the "instant" access to the 3 tones I am after (the clean, the 70's-Kiss, and the heavy) that I can get using the Custom 20 with the Metal Core pedal...plus there's no reverb on the Archon, but then there is the 13w switch on the back...jeez, can I get a 3-channel Custom Archon combo?!? :biggrin:


Maybe hotter pickups to drive the amp more? Or am I just playing with the Masters set too low?


I had the Custom 50 head going into a PRS 2x12 cabinet a couple years ago and unless my memory is failing me, I remember loving the gain I got from that...but it was a head/cab vs. a combo and I was in a house at the time an I'm sure I was probably playing at a louder volume then! (I wish I could go into my neighbor's condo while someone was playing my guitar so I could see just how loud I could get without disturbing anybody! I thought about asking, but then I thought that might make the neighbor start paying attention to how much noise I am making and I'd get into a "jinxed myself" situation!! LOL)


Any of you amp gurus got any advice?!?

 

[andy474x]

Does your amp have adjustable levels for the effects loop? I think those can effect your gain levels depending on how they're tweaked.

 

[mapleleaf14]

It does, I put a jumper cable in there for a minute or so and thought it sounded way bad so I took it back off...maybe I need to play around with that again.

Anybody got more info of that aspect?

 

[andy474x]

http://youtu.be/wx0LdRcGSHQ

You can see Paul adjusting and describing the effects loop controls in this video.

Strange that your amp doesn't seem to have a lot of gain on the lead channel. The C, H, and SE's are all known for having a ton. I mean, I believe you, but strange. Must have been part of the redesign?

 

[mapleleaf14]

Thanks Andy! I'm gonna have to play around with the loop some more when I get home tonight.


It could be as simple as I'm just playing with the masters so low...I mean, I have the volume set where I can still hear the television - I often will play along with a concert bluray with the television at basically the same volume I have it at when I'm just watching TV.

 

[WEDGE]

This amp, to my ears anyways, does get a good amount of gain but not a huge amount of saturation if that makes any sense. Even cranked it is very gainy but not in a full on saturated metal kind of way. Gain is subjective and depending on your tastes it may or may not be enough for you.

As for your pickup question yeah hotter pickups will help but wont put you over the top. Can you give a reference tone you are seeking so we can help understand your level set? I mean are you seeking a 80's metal tone ala Judas Priest or Maiden, or are you looking for some Pantera type filth......that amp will do the 80's but definitely not the latter.

 

[C&M Music - Lafayette]

Amp gurus...I seek your knowledge!


I thought there would be more gain on this amp. Granted, I am playing at "bedroom" levels so the Masters are both really low (live in a condo and can't crank it up)...is this why I'm not getting as much gain as I thought I'd get?

I am no amp guru, but the answer to your question is, Yes.

 

[mapleleaf14]

Wedge,


What you said makes a lot of sense...the sautration I guess is kind of what I'm not getting, but I still would like more gain! Tone wise, not looking for death metal tones, but along the lines of Anthrax's "State Of Euphoria" album, if you're familiar with that, would be the heaviest I would want.


Like I said, I can get that with the clean channel/Metal Core pedal...I guess I'm just trying to decide if I want to make the trip to Sweetwater Friday and swap the Custom 20 for the Archon 25. I'm struggling with that decision because I really love the clean channel tone and the lead channel tone (we'll call that "overdrive"!) that I am getting with the Custom 20, I just need that "third" channel of the "heavy" tone...which I can get via the pedal and I'm thinking I will lose my current "overdrive" tone with the Archon (without changing the Archon's controls everytime I go back & forth between the "overdrive" tone and the "heavy" tone)...does what I'm saying make sense?!?!?


Knowing myself, I'm sure I'm making it into more than it needs to be! I've heard great things about the Archon's clean channel, so I can probably get the three tones I'm after with the Archon - just the "heavy" tone will be the lead channel, and the "overdrive" tone will come from altering the distortion pedal on the clean channel - basically a variation of what I'm doing right now with the Custom 20...so I'm probably crazy for making such a thing out of it - running a pedal on the clean channel is going to be required for one of the tones for whichever amp I end up with, so a smart person would probably just leave it be and keep what I already have...but I've never claimed to be a smart person!


I guess I just need to figure out what is more important to me...getting the "heavy" tone with the amp and the "overdrive" tone with a pedal (Archon 25) or get the "overdrive" tone with the amp and the "heavy" tone with a pedal (Custom 20)...both have great clean tones.

 

[C&M Music - Lafayette]

Wedge,

I guess I just need to figure out what is more important to me...getting the "heavy" tone with the amp and the "overdrive" tone with a pedal (Archon 25) or get the "overdrive" tone with the amp and the "heavy" tone with a pedal (Custom 20)...both have great clean tones.

That saturation/ overdriving the tubes is done at the higher volume when the amp is pushing the tubes. Attenuators allow for that gap to be closed somewhat so to speak. What you are wanting is accomplished with higher master volume settings.

 

[Boogie]

Interesting discussion. Based on what I read, I'm not sure an attenuator is the right tool for this issue. Sure, you won't get the power stage push that you would if it were clipping, but saturation really comes from the preamp. Sometimes, there are sounds in my hear that can't be attained with a particular amp, but with the right pedal, it's right there. I like the ironically named, Vox Satchurator (the rebuild of Satriani's modded DS-1) for this kind of job (I've also had a Keeley modded DS-1 which is a cool option). I'm very compelled to pick up a Bogner Ecstasy Red pedal for the same job but add a bit more esoteric control than the Satchurator. Because, when you want to step into singing sustain and insanity, instantly, with most amps, a pedal does the best job. Otherwise, I just switch to the Boogie MkIII.

 

[bodia]

Interesting discussion. Based on what I read, I'm not sure an attenuator is the right tool for this issue. Sure, you won't get the power stage push that you would if it were clipping, but saturation really comes from the preamp. Sometimes, there are sounds in my hear that can't be attained with a particular amp, but with the right pedal, it's right there. I like the ironically named, Vox Satchurator (the rebuild of Satriani's modded DS-1) for this kind of job (I've also had a Keeley modded DS-1 which is a cool option). I'm very compelled to pick up a Bogner Ecstasy Red pedal for the same job but add a bit more esoteric control than the Satchurator. Because, when you want to step into singing sustain and insanity, instantly, with most amps, a pedal does the best job. Otherwise, I just switch to the Boogie MkIII.

ive got one of these and love it. It would definitely do what the OP is looking for.

 

[mapleleaf14]

UPDATE:

ok, I ended up getting a Rivera Rock Crusher and it is fantastic...I can run the Masters a lot higher and just lower the output with the Rivera...just opened up the amp more is the best way I can describe it!


I also picked up a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Mayhem pedal at the same time and that thing makes this amp a fire-breather! Jeez it has a lot of gain! I'm gonna ditch the Boss Metal Core pedal...the Mayhem is way more "musical" sounding, has a much better EQ section, and has better clarity IMO.


I can can get the sounds I need now perfectly with the amp, and for the occasional time I need something way heavier, the Mayhem is plenty. I'm in the process of putting together my board now...I've added the Mayhem pedal, a t.c.Electronic Dreamscape pedal, a Seymour Duncan Vapor Trail pedal, an ISP Decimator II pedal, and the Boss TU-3 tuner pedal. I ditched the t.c.Electronic Nova System multi-efx unit I had...never really bonded with that thing, and the TU-3 seems a bit more accurate than the old t.c. Polytune pedal I was using...that surprised me a little. I'm really impressed with both the Duncan Vapor Trail and the Dreamscape. SO cool how you can use the iPhone Toneprint app to send new Toneprint sounds to the Dreamscape pedal thru your pickup!


Thanks for everybody's advice.



(EDIT: I mistakenly put that I had the Bogner Uberschall pedal...I returned the Bogner and got the used Mayhem pedal - when I posted this I typed Bogner instead of the Mayhem!)

 

[László]

Fantastic that you're getting what you need!

 

[mapleleaf14]

A buddy gave me an MXR Fullbore Metal pedal yesterday for free and it is going to replace the Mayhem on my board...it has GOBS of gain and is WAY smaller than the Mayhem, which is huge (because of the dual tubes inside) and I also wasn't thrilled with needing to use the Mayhem wall wart...I can power the MXR with my standard 9v daisy chain.

I'm having a new board made out of hickory by a woodworking friend of mine, so when it's ready I'm going to put the Boss Metal Core pedal back on too. This amp takes pedals so well, I dialed in a fourth overdrive tone with that pedal that I believe will come in handy. So now I have my clean tone and my standard overdrive tone via the amp only, and now my "heavy metal" tone with the MXR pedal, and now another option that's between the amp overdrive tone and the metal tone.

Took me awhile, but I think I'm dialed in now! :rock:


EDIT: Well, the Hickory pedal board looks great, but he made it way too tall! I feel like I am putting my foot up on a stage monitor when using it! I ended up with a Pedaltrain Novo 18 in the end.

 

[László]

Isn't it great when everything just works?

 

[alantig]

I'd be curious to see how you have the Fullbore set up. I go back and forth on it. Sometimes I prefer it, sometimes I go w/one of the other 'metal' pedals I have. I've never quite gotten the noise gate where I want it.

 

[mapleleaf14]

Alan, I have the Fullbore's gate at only about an 1/8th of the way "on" - I use an ISP Decimator II pedal and prefer that because I can turn it on/off if I want with my foot rather than that tiny little button on the Fullbore, but with that being said I find that with the Fullbore's gate that low, it seems to let the note fade out fairly naturally. I have the Scoop switch OFF, the FREQ is at 3 o'clock, GAIN at 1 o'clock, LOW at 10 o'clock, MID at 9:30, and HIGH at 10 o'clock! Even with the gain "only" at 1 o'clock there is a TON of gain.

The FREQ knob can really alter the sound of this pedal which I like.

 

[alantig]

Alan, I have the Fullbore's gate at only about an 1/8th of the way "on" - I use an ISP Decimator II pedal and prefer that because I can turn it on/off if I want with my foot rather than that tiny little button on the Fullbore, but with that being said I find that with the Fullbore's gate that low, it seems to let the note fade out fairly naturally. I have the Scoop switch OFF, the FREQ is at 3 o'clock, GAIN at 1 o'clock, LOW at 10 o'clock, MID at 9:30, and HIGH at 10 o'clock! Even with the gain "only" at 1 o'clock there is a TON of gain.

The FREQ knob can really alter the sound of this pedal which I like.

Thanks - I'll have to go adjust mine and play with it a bit. I'll have to check where everything is set, but I'm pretty sure my NG is higher than that - I definitely don't get the natural fade out.

 

[mapleleaf14]

Alan, yeah - have a play with the tiny little noise gate "dial" on the inside...I took it all the way down, then barely turned it up...that's what I did and like I said, the note fades out "fairly" naturally...the little light even kind of fades in instead of just coming on all of a sudden. I still play around with the FREQ knob every now and then as it can really make a difference with the tiniest of adjustments.


I ended up ordering the last Plum Limited Archon 25 from Sweetwater so when that comes I'll decide which one is going to be THE one and I'll return the other one. (That's the plan at least...I hope I don't end up keeping both of them because that's too much money to spend! LOL)


I do know this - with all the amp tweaking I've done in the past couple of weeks, as well as (still) putting together a totally new pedalboard, I've had more fun lately playing guitar than I can remember having in quite awhile!

 

[alantig]

I've gone back and forth on my heavier gain tones - which probably explains why I have three metal pedals. I've never quite found one heavy gain tone I could live with in an amp. I wasn't quite able to dial in the Mark IV to where I liked it all the time. I love the Archon gain, but I do like to vary it up a bit now and then. I do like how flexible the gain is on the Archon - I hadn't played with it much until someone asked about the range a few weeks ago. Even on the lowest gain settings on the dirty channel, it's very good - I could live there for a lot of stuff. But I also like the tone of the Hot British pedal through the clean channel.

That's one of the fun things about the tone quest - it's kind of like a roller coaster. Better at some times than others, but it's a ride I really don't want to end because I'm having too much fun. (But ask me some day when I can't get it where I want it - bet my tune changes then!)