A Great Combo (Pun Intended)

I want something that doesn’t exist: a lightweight smallish easy to carry Twin Reverb. Somebody somewhere has got to be working on this creation. Maybe it won’t be 100%, maybe not even 80%, but 70% has to be doable, right?

Nope.

Tube amps really do sound exactly like what their physical and electrical design dictates. And a small speaker cabinet and ten inch speaker can’t sound like a 2x12 in a larger cabinet due to the laws of acoustics

Take out a Twin’s 4 6L6 higher headroom tubes and larger transformers, replace them will smaller transformers and two 6V6s tubes, reduce the size of the speaker cabinet from a 212 to a much smaller 110, go from a long-spring reverb tank to a small-spring reverb tank, eliminate some of the circuitry to reduce weight and size, and what does logic say you’ll wind up with?

Not a Twin.

You’ve actually come pretty close to spec’ ing a Princeton.

The cabinet and speaker changes alone dictate this. Then deal with all the saturation issues of small transformers, less powerful tubes, reduced circuitry, different reverbs. There are lots of really fantastic small tube amps on the market, yet none of them sound like Twins. It’s because the laws of physics are what they are.

You can come close with a Modeler, thoug, if you want something lightweight that you can gig with and make it sound pretty close to a Twin.
 
That Road King II will go to 120 watts if you kick in all six of the power tubes... headroom for days but the volume is sneaky brutal. It's so clean you don't realize how loud it is! I put two Altec 417-8H speakers in it on a Santana/Rhoads moments, and they are pretty punchy. Pretty sure that's the biggest engine I have these days. I'm enjoying the 55 and less amps a lot more than I used to, and spent a lot of tonight playing at 2 Watts! My younger self would disown me. I gig on a Fractal Axe FX III, so these are all for fun and jams in the Band Cave. But I might have to break that new one out for a gig, it sounds so cool.

I liked the Road King. It’s a nice amp. I’ve had a lot of Mesas since getting a Tremoverb 90W back in the early 90s, and have dug them all.

The Mesa’s warmer and more mid-forward tone compared to, say, a Twin, suits my playing style, though I’ve been hooked first on Two-Rocks, and since 2013 or so, on the HXDA and DG30.

I do like my Lone Star and Fillmore, but prefer the PRS single channel amps. For whatever reason (I can only speculate), single channel amps just sound more like what I want to hear. The extensive hand-wiring on these amps probably contributes to the tone; there’s very little circuit board stuff on these amps.

However, it’s sure nice to have choices! The Fillmore is basically two single channel amps in one, so I’m not sure if it really qualifies as single channel, but regardless, I’ve got a set of NOS RCA, GE and other vintage tubes to retube it once the speaker cabinet arrives.

Fitting out the Lone Star with NOS tubes truly turned it into a boutique sounding amp that’s satisfying to play long-term, and mine’s now going on 4 years old. The fact that I haven’t sold it in that long is unusual for me with Mesas. I tend to go through most amps after a short period. So I credit the NOS tubes with making that amp go from a “pretty nice amp to mess with” to a trusted studio fixture.

I’m hop[ing the same thing will turn the Fillmore into something I’ll want to play for a long time. My PRS amps are also fitted with NOS glass, and they sound amazing, too.
 
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For whatever reason (I can only speculate), single channel amps just sound more like what I want to hear.

We seem to agree on many things in the amp world. I have always thought that the simplicity of a circuit contributes to its better sound to me. I have a Mesa F-100 that I love. Super simple amp. No push/pull or switches or multi-voices. It sounds monstrous when cranked. I love my Princeton and Bassman clones to. May e it’s all in my head, but the sound bigger and realer to me. More connected. Struggling for words to describe it.

Anyway, my favourite amps tend to be the simplest ones.
 
I liked the Road King. It’s a nice amp. I’ve had a lot of Mesas since getting a Tremoverb 90W back in the early 90s, and have dug them all.

The Mesa’s warmer and more mid-forward tone compared to, say, a Twin, suits my playing style, though I’ve been hooked first on Two-Rocks, and since 2013 or so, on the HXDA and DG30.

I do like my Lone Star and Fillmore, but prefer the PRS single channel amps. For whatever reason (I can only speculate), single channel amps just sound more like what I want to hear. The extensive hand-wiring on these amps probably contributes to the tone; there’s very little circuit board stuff on these amps.

However, it’s sure nice to have choices! The Fillmore is basically two single channel amps in one, so I’m not sure if it really qualifies as single channel, but regardless, I’ve got a set of NOS RCA, GE and other vintage tubes to retube it once the speaker cabinet arrives.

Fitting out the Lone Star with NOS tubes truly turned it into a boutique sounding amp that’s satisfying to play long-term, and mine’s now 4 1/2 years old. The fact that I haven’t sold it in that long is unusual for me with Mesas. I tend to go through most amps after a short period. So I credit the NOS tubes with making that amp go from a “pretty nice amp to mess with” to a trusted studio fixture.

I’m hop[ing the same thing will turn the Fillmore into something I’ll want to play for a long time. My PRS amps are also fitted with NOS glass, and they sound amazing, too.
I couldn’t agree more on tube quality, which hasn’t been consistent in years. It was never perfect, but you did have a few manufacturers that made a great product. I have some 50s RCA and 60s Philips 6V6GCs I’ll try in this new one to see how they fare. Mesa’s set bias can make that a challenge, but trial and error always seem to get it there. I have a store of SED (Winged C, the real Svetlanas) in 6L6GC, EL34, and KT88 for the others, and it’s going to be a sad day once they’re gone! I found some in the UK, but the inventories are dwindling.

I have a cabinet full of that sort of stuff and try to buy a little more here and there to add to the collection. Non-guitarists, especially those my age, get a kick from seeing a bunch of vacuum tubes... like a flashback to their past. It’s hard to imagine now that, at one point, I could go to any appliance store, drug or department store and buy all the RCA, Sylvania, GE, Philips tubes I could carry for cheap. It’s case price for one of those tubes now. I’ll add that to the stock market, Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon and everything else I didn’t buy up when I could have!
 
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Nope.

Tube amps really do sound exactly like what their physical and electrical design dictates. And a small speaker cabinet and ten inch speaker can’t sound like a 2x12 in a larger cabinet due to the laws of acoustics

Take out a Twin’s 4 6L6 higher headroom tubes and larger transformers, replace them will smaller transformers and two 6V6s tubes, reduce the size of the speaker cabinet from a 212 to a much smaller 110, go from a long-spring reverb tank to a small-spring reverb tank, eliminate some of the circuitry to reduce weight and size, and what does logic say you’ll wind up with?

Not a Twin.

You’ve actually come pretty close to spec’ ing a Princeton.

The cabinet and speaker changes alone dictate this. Then deal with all the saturation issues of small transformers, less powerful tubes, reduced circuitry, different reverbs. There are lots of really fantastic small tube amps on the market, yet none of them sound like Twins. It’s because the laws of physics are what they are.

You can come close with a Modeler, thoug, if you want something lightweight that you can gig with and make it sound pretty close to a Twin.

I get that. Physics and EE, etc. And there are some legitimate Twins that sound like crap so that design criteria/specification doesn’t always produce the glorious Twin sound... that’s why I think somebody should be able to get close.

I’ve tried the Princeton. It’s close. But still almost 40 lbs, which makes me sad.

The Quilter, although not tube, can get really close to the Princeton. That’s actually how I ended up searching out the Quilter.

Don’t squash my hopes and dreams man! Maybe one day I will find my lil featherweight Twin Reverb!
 
Don’t squash my hopes and dreams man! Maybe one day I will find my lil featherweight Twin Reverb!

The last thing I want to be is a hopes/dreams squasher! I’ve always been a hopes/dreams enabler, which is one of many reasons why my two daughters and my son are the most interesting people I know, and have had the will to do exactly what they’ve hoped to do in life.

My own thinking is that the thing to try in reducing weight (but still getting a classic sound) doesn’t necessarily require messing with the electronics

By focusing on the electronics to reduce weight, I think the amp makers are barking up the wrong tree (pun intended as will be explained below). The old electronics technology sounds great, and isn’t the worst problem for weight. A transformer for a Twin in its packing is under 9 pounds. That ain’t the boat anchor here.

Seems to me that materials technology might be put to good use to replace the heavy wooden cabinet everything sits in. As an example, even a so-called light weight pine 212 speaker cabinet weighs 28 pounds - unloaded. In a 65-70 pound amp like a Twin, that’s 43% of the weight!!

The wood is, quite simply, the worst problem to be solved if you want a light weight amp. Not the electronics.

Lighter weight speakers help; a Fender Twin Neo in its bog-standard plywood wooden cabinet will come in at 56 pounds, compared with a standard Twin that weighs 64 pounds.

But with that amp, the only difference is the weight of the speakers. What if you could reduce the weight of the wooden box the other parts sit inside, and cut that 28 pounds (for a pine cabinet — the current Twins are even heavier plywood, but let’s go best case scenario) in half, or less? Your full-sized Twin would now weigh 42 pounds, about what your Princeton weighs.

Make it a 112, and you’ve got a 37 pound amp, even with traditional electronics, and that doesn’t factor in lighter cabinets due to smaller size.

Are we getting into manageable territory here?

You might be able to do that, or even more, relatively inexpensively, if you use wood-based nanocellulose material. Maybe it’d even sound like a heavier wooden cab. It’s stronger than Kevlar, 8 times stronger than stainless steel, and has zillions of applications. It’s also biodegradable, unlike most plastic.

It’s actually lighter and potentially stronger than carbon fiber. I read somewhere that a plant in Madison WI is being, or has been built, to make use of this technology. Whether it will sound like a traditional wooden cabinet is quite another question, but no one’s experimented with it that I’m aware of.

Or you could go carbon fiber with, say, a wooden baffle, for example, and reduce that weight. Carbon fiber is lighter than aluminum and many other lightweight materials.

Maybe there are other good materials choices? Who’s even experimented with this concept?
 
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The last thing I want to be is a hopes/dreams squasher! I’ve always been a hopes/dreams enabler, which is one of many reasons why my two daughters and my son are the most interesting people I know, and have had the will to do exactly what they’ve hoped to do in life.

My own thinking is that the thing to try in reducing weight (but still getting a classic sound) doesn’t necessarily require messing with the electronics

By focusing on the electronics to reduce weight, I think the amp makers are barking up the wrong tree (pun intended as will be explained below). The old electronics technology sounds great, and isn’t the worst problem for weight.

Seems to me that materials technology might be put to good use to replace the heavy wooden cabinet everything sits in. As an example, even a so-called light weight pine 212 speaker cabinet weighs 28 pounds - unloaded. In a 65-70 pound amp like a Twin, that’s 43% of the weight!!

The wood is, quite simply, the worst problem to be solved if you want a light weight amp. Not the electronics.

Lighter weight speakers help; a Fender Twin Neo in its bog-standard plywood wooden cabinet will come in at 56 pounds, compared with a standard Twin that weighs 64 pounds.

But with that amp, the only difference is the weight of the speakers. What if you could reduce the weight of the wooden box the other parts sit inside, and cut that 28 pounds (for a pine cabinet — the current Twins are even heavier plywood, but let’s go best case scenario) in half, or less? Your full-sized Twin would now weigh 42 pounds, about what your Princeton weighs.

Make it a 112, and you’ve got a 37 pound amp, even with traditional electronics, and that doesn’t factor in lighter cabinets due to smaller size.

Are we getting into manageable territory here?

You might be able to do that, or even more, relatively inexpensively, if you use wood-based nanocellulose material. Maybe it’d even sound like a heavier wooden cab. It’s stronger than Kevlar, 8 times stronger than stainless steel, and has zillions of applications. It’s also biodegradable, unlike most plastic.

It’s actually lighter and potentially stronger than carbon fiber. I read somewhere that a plant in Madison WI is being, or has been built, to make use of this technology. Whether it will sound like a traditional wooden cabinet is quite another question, but no one’s experimented with it that I’m aware of.

Or you could go carbon fiber with, say, a wooden baffle, for example, and reduce that weight. Carbon fiber is lighter than aluminum and many other lightweight materials.

Maybe there are other good materials choices? Who’s even experimented with this concept?

Yup, I hear that there are quite a few amp builders focusing on the known heavy materials and using innovation to find the right combo of ‘change the material that influences tone to lesser degree in order to achieve improvements while keeping the guts that have a higher impact on tone the same’.

One of the local builders up here keeps promising me that he is ‘working on it’.

They are just slow.

And I am not known for being patient.
 
I get that. Physics and EE, etc. And there are some legitimate Twins that sound like crap so that design criteria/specification doesn’t always produce the glorious Twin sound... that’s why I think somebody should be able to get close.

(cough... read my post above. I can point you to a specific thread if you'd like. I think your answer is in that thread. PM me if interested).
 
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And I am not known for being patient.

Truly impatient people who want their slice of the world changed badly enough should take matters into their own hands instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

It’s the “badly enough” qualifier that’s usually the sticky issue. ;)
 
Truly impatient people who want their slice of the world changed badly enough should take matters into their own hands instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

It’s the “badly enough” qualifier that’s usually the sticky issue. ;)

Yeah too bad I’m taking matters into my own hands in my engineering industry... and that takes up too much of my time because it pays my bills, lol.

But if I had unlimited time, then I’d definitely use my impatience for good and not evil.
 
We seem to agree on many things in the amp world. I have always thought that the simplicity of a circuit contributes to its better sound to me. I have a Mesa F-100 that I love. Super simple amp. No push/pull or switches or multi-voices. It sounds monstrous when cranked. I love my Princeton and Bassman clones to. May e it’s all in my head, but the sound bigger and realer to me. More connected. Struggling for words to describe it.

Anyway, my favourite amps tend to be the simplest ones.

We are indeed much alike in our tone preferences!

My guess - and it’s just a guess, not science - is that simpler circuits just screw with the tone less. As an example, my Lone Star has 5 or 6 preamp tubes the signal travels through, and god knows how many other bits and bobs of parts. All of them seem to leave their fingerprints on the tone.

The HXDA and DG30 each have three preamp tubes, and I believe, a simpler layout. Probably why I prefer them a little bit., but I don’t discount how much I still like the Mesas I have for different uses.

Granted, sometimes you want a circuit to make its presence felt! F’rinstance, I rarely use the extra gain stage on the second channel of the Lone Star. But when I need it, I have it. Same with the global master volume. It, and the effects loop, can be switched out of the circuit. I think it sounds a lot better with all that stuff out of the way, but there are times it’s needed.

I keep saying this, but in this era, we are SO lucky to have (a) the many choices we have to pick gear to personalize our sound, and (b) accounting for inflation, even the best stuff is relatively affordable.Throw in modeling for those that like it (I’m less enthusiastic about modeling than most), and we are living in a Golden Age.

And don’t even start me on the fact that I can make recordings that are broadcast-quality for my ad music tracks with very little gear, in my freakin’ basement!
 
Yeah too bad I’m taking matters into my own hands in my engineering industry... and that takes up too much of my time because it pays my bills, lol.

But if I had unlimited time, then I’d definitely use my impatience for good and not evil.

Like I said, the “wanting it badly enough” detail is usually the kicker. I’d work on a lightweight cabinet myself if I was hot to trot for something like that.

When I was writing the post, I kept thinking, “I should do this. I have a good ear, and could work with a nano company to develop something cool. After all, opportunity knocks!”

And then I thought, “Les, are you crazy? Like you have time for that, or are even going to be on the planet long enough to make it to the finish line?”

So I went and had a sandwich instead. Sometimes taking a lunch break kills a bad idea, such as leaving the ad scoring business to go into the speaker cabinet building business.

Right now I’m having a delicious Monkey 47 Schwartzwald Gin martini, and I’ve completely let go of the idea. Let someone else do it.

Cheers!
 
Like I said, the “wanting it badly enough” detail is usually the kicker. I’d work on a lightweight cabinet myself if I was hot to trot for something like that.

When I was writing the post, I kept thinking, “I should do this. I have a good ear, and could work with a nano company to develop something cool. After all, opportunity knocks!”

And then I thought, “Les, are you crazy? Like you have time for that, or are even going to be on the planet long enough to make it to the finish line?”

So I went and had a sandwich instead. Sometimes taking a lunch break kills a bad idea, such as leaving the ad scoring business to go into the speaker cabinet building business.

Right now I’m having a delicious Monkey 47 Schwartzwald Gin martini, and I’ve completely let go of the idea. Let someone else do it.

Cheers!

Exactly. Let someone else do it. It’s not like I am amp-less, lol. More amps and guitars laying around than I have hands to play them with. I will keep asking the guys who have the time (and the smarts) ... and I will have my money ready to throw at them when they are done.
 
Exactly. Let someone else do it. It’s not like I am amp-less, lol. More amps and guitars laying around than I have hands to play them with. I will keep asking the guys who have the time (and the smarts) ... and I will have my money ready to throw at them when they are done.

I don’t have a ton of amps and guitars. 5 electric guitars, all PRS; four amps, two PRS. But mine help me make my living, so I freaking love them and don’t give a rat’s ass what they weigh, or how loudly I need to record them to get a good take.

It’s all a matter of what you need.

I’d rather be known as a composer than a cabinet designer. But IF I had the itch...yeah, I would know what to start with.
 
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