48 Years On I Still Have No Idea Re: Bear Claw Tube Retainer Clips...

[László]

You know, I've been playing guitar through tube amps for a VERY long time, and many of my amps have come with these Fender style octal tube retainer clips. If the tubes hang upside down, you need them, or something similar - yes, there is another type of clip that has a screw that tightens a circular clip, but they're much more unusual to find on an amp. My octal tube amps seem to always come with these:

Thing is, spreading them apart to remove and replace a tube usually means something gets screwed up, as they always seem to stay bent out of shape. Then you have to bend them back into place, and it's never quite right. At least, the way I've always tried to do it! I'll bet I've been doing this incorrectly for all these years.

There's gotta be a "proper" way to use these damn things, but no one's ever told me how to do it the right way.

I've made do for a long time, so I'd really like to know if anyone has info on the correct way to do it! Anyone know? I've done a Google search, but other than simply identifying these things, I can't find anything on their proper use.

 

[xjbebop]

I don't know, but I think you've been doing it right. That's the only way I've figured those things to work.....

 

[László]

Just for grins, I decided to see if Mesa had anything on it, and they have this video located with this link:

http://www.mesaboogie.com/amplitudes/2010/November/mesa-amplifier-tube-troubleshooting.html

It appears that the way they, at least, do it is to spread the clip by bending it, removing the tube, and then before inserting the new tube, bend it back so it grabs the new tube. I've always inserted the tube first and afterward tried to bend it back to hold the tube, and that is apparently what I've been doing wrong.

Still, it seems like a fairly primitive way of doing things, doesn't it? You'd think after all these years, someone would've come up with something better.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Les,
I just take two fingers and push them down and hold them with one hand and wiggle the tube out with the other. The ones I've had were very "springy" and pushing them down like he did in that video would not make them stay bent. They'd spring back up as soon as you let go. For that type you have to hold them open, not just bend them.

Two hands, hold down with one, remove tube with the other.

 

[László]

Les,
I just take two fingers and push them down and hold them with one hand and wiggle the tube out with the other. The ones I've had were very "springy" and pushing them down like he did in that video would not make them stay bent. They'd spring back up as soon as you let go. For that type you have to hold them open, not just bend them.

Two hands, hold down with one, remove tube with the other.

Thanks for the tip! Appreciated!

 

[rugerpc]

Les,
I just take two fingers and push them down and hold them with one hand and wiggle the tube out with the other. The ones I've had were very "springy" and pushing them down like he did in that video would not make them stay bent. They'd spring back up as soon as you let go. For that type you have to hold them open, not just bend them.

Two hands, hold down with one, remove tube with the other.

This.

Because repeated bending leads to metal fatigue and failure (broken springs).

 

[László]

This.

Because repeated bending leads to metal fatigue and failure (broken springs).

Yes, but some tube retainers don't have enough spring on them to do that...spreading them apart does in fact simply bend them, as I mentioned in my original post. I agree, if you have tube retainers with enough spring, that's great.

Fortunately, they're very inexpensive parts to buy, and super-easy to replace.

 

[Boogie]

This.

Because repeated bending leads to metal fatigue and failure (broken springs).

True, but bend them only enough to clear the tube and you're talking a small amount of deflection. After almost 27 years on one amp and a bunch of tube swaps, my Boogie shows no signs of retainer fatigue.

 

[rugerpc]

True, but bend them only enough to clear the tube and you're talking a small amount of deflection. After almost 27 years on one amp and a bunch of tube swaps, my Boogie shows no signs of retainer fatigue.

In the video above, the tech bent them almost flat to the chassis. I cringed. So, I definately don't recommend that.

 

[László]

In the video above, the tech bent them almost flat to the chassis. I cringed. So, I definately don't recommend that.

I agree, I wouldn't do that either.He doesn't have to live with the amp for many tube changes down the road. LOL

 

[WeFixFlats]

I found the troubleshooting video very educational and informative. (But that Mesa has enough tubes, switches and knobs to keep you busy doesn't it?, glad my HXDA only has five tubes~!)

My takeaway was that 'V1' is, (next to a good pair of matched power tubes) is the key to having 'good tone'(subjective), so buy the best you can afford.

But never had an issue with tube retainers, they work as designed on both my tube amps.

Thanks for the post~!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I've never had one or replaced tubes on one, that the metal wasn't "springy" or whatever you want to call it. Meaning, you push them down, they did not stay bent, they spring right back. That makes it a two had affair. I've never come across one that had softer metal that would stay bent. And honestly, I wouldn't want them. Them springing back into place is what holds the tube. If I had some that had to be bent into place to hold the tube, I'd replace them with the ones like I have always seen

This is probably another good time to issue my standard disclosure though. "I am an expert on nothing. This post was IMHO, your mileage may vary. Consult your physician for ....."

 

[László]

I've never had one or replaced tubes on one, that the metal wasn't "springy" or whatever you want to call it. Meaning, you push them down, they did not stay bent, they spring right back. That makes it a two had affair. I've never come across one that had softer metal that would stay bent. And honestly, I wouldn't want them. Them springing back into place is what holds the tube. If I had some that had to be bent into place to hold the tube, I'd replace them with the ones like I have always seen

This is probably another good time to issue my standard disclosure though. "I am an expert on nothing. This post was IMHO, your mileage may vary. Consult your physician for ....."

I completely get it!

As you saw in that Mesa video, it could be that the tube retainers are something unique to them, and I've had an awful lot of Mesa amps that had those darn things, and changed a lot of tubes on them.

The reason I posted this is that I was thinking about installing those NOS Siemens EL34s I got on my HXDA that has perfectly good Winged Cs with plenty of life left in them, and I saw those retainer clips and thought, "Um...I'm not gonna mess with these until I absolutely need to change the tubes." Haha!

After all the Mesas, I mostly had Two-Rocks, same clips if I recall, but they came with NOS tubes that seemed to last forever, and I didn't have to mess with them.

The odd duck, so to speak, was my Bad Cat Hot Cat that had a screw-clamp retainer that I thought was a very good idea. You loosened the screw on the clamp, change the tube, and re-tighten the screw. It's so much less fiddly, and the result is quite secure.

The other amps I was into for the past umpteen years have had EL84s with the spring retainers, that are easy to deal with but are also a bit fiddly.

You'd think that after what, more than 70 years of making amps with tubes in them, someone would have come up with a tube retainer that a) is secure; b) is not fiddly to operate; and c) doesn't rattle.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I mean, something as simple as a little lining between the metal and the glass would go a long way. Or some kind of double clamp system that exerted just enough amount of pressure to keep tube in place, but no more...seriously, why hasn't anyone built a better mousetrap, yet?

 

[László]

I mean, something as simple as a little lining between the metal and the glass would go a long way. Or some kind of double clamp system that exerted just enough amount of pressure to keep tube in place, but no more...seriously, why hasn't anyone built a better mousetrap, yet?

Heck, you could use a clamp that simply tightened down with a lever type latch, like the clamps on some of the classic microphone shock mounts.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

well, while we're on the topic... I've always wondered about the type that completely surrounds the tube, and then twists in just surrounding the tube socket. (Both my PRS amps have these on all tubes except power tubes). My question about these: Don't they make the tube run hotter? I can't imagine how with only that little hole in the top and being completely surrounded by metal, that they don't make the tube run hotter. I guess it's possible that if aluminum, they actually act as a heat sink, but I've never heard that claimed. and being metal I'd "assume" they retain heat.

 

[BMiller]

well, while we're on the topic... I've always wondered about the type that completely surrounds the tube, and then twists in just surrounding the tube socket. (Both my PRS amps have these on all tubes except power tubes). My question about these: Don't they make the tube run hotter? I can't imagine how with only that little hole in the top and being completely surrounded by metal, that they don't make the tube run hotter. I guess it's possible that if aluminum, they actually act as a heat sink, but I've never heard that claimed. and being metal I'd "assume" they retain heat.

These are actually designed as shields from noise. In most amps, V1 is where you will commonly find them due to the low signal level. In the amps I build I put them on every pre amp tube to either shield from noise (V1) or to keep the tubes solidly in place during transport (although this is not a necessary issue if your sockets are tight).

As for heat and/or heat dissipation, I have yet to hear of an issue with it.

 

[BMiller]

I found the troubleshooting video very educational and informative. (But that Mesa has enough tubes, switches and knobs to keep you busy doesn't it?, glad my HXDA only has five tubes~!)

My takeaway was that 'V1' is, (next to a good pair of matched power tubes) is the key to having 'good tone'(subjective), so buy the best you can afford.

But never had an issue with tube retainers, they work as designed on both my tube amps.

Thanks for the post~!

From my experience building, repairing, and modding tube amps, V1 and the PI (last pre tube before the output tubes) impact the tone the most. Of course every other one does as well, but not as much as these two. In most classic designs, V1 is the first tube that you guitar "sees" and what you choose can change the way the rest of the amp works. The PI makes a huge impact on how the tone you crafted in the pre section works the power tubes.....

 

[dsenoj]

I mean, something as simple as a little lining between the metal and the glass would go a long way. Or some kind of double clamp system that exerted just enough amount of pressure to keep tube in place, but no more...seriously, why hasn't anyone built a better mousetrap, yet?

Well, most of the world thinks they built a better mousetrap 40-60 years ago, transistors and integrated circuits. And for anything but guitar amps (and probably audiophile hi-fi), they're probably right.

 

[László]

Well, most of the world thinks they built a better mousetrap 40-60 years ago, transistors and integrated circuits. And for anything but guitar amps (and probably audiophile hi-fi), they're probably right.

They are wrong!

Viddy this, sir: This is the first digital computer, ENIAC. And it's got about ten zillion TUBES! If only computers had stayed TUBE powered, people would be able to communicate with their children by speaking with them, instead of by text messaging! Because no one's carrying this around in their pocket.

And there would be other advantages. Like...if your amp needed a new tube, you could just raid your computer and get through the gig!