2001 - An Amp Odyssey

[László]

I should add here that a digital modeling amp is designed to do a million different things, and the best ones do that well, but the question for some of us is, Can it do any ONE thing as well as the best dedicated tube amps?

At this point in time, the answer is, “No.” Huggy, I know you agree with this.

That doesn’t mean it’s not useful. It means it’s designed for a different task. Speaking only for myself, I’ve got nothing against digital stuff. I just appreciate different characteristics, and would rather have my tone appliances dedicated to doing one or two things extremely well than a million things less well.

That’s just a matter of preference, it’s NOT a pronouncement of what other people should do.

However, the same argument can be made for whether a tube amp designed to do everything can succeed at any ONE thing as well as an amp designed to do ONE thing extremely well.

And that’s why I have a few amps that each do one or two things well, instead of one amp that tries to be all things to all people, which as far as I’m concerned is, if not impossible, it certainly hasn’t been done yet.

There aren’t any “wrong” choices. There are choices that work better for the individual than others. So I like single-channel amps. They may or may not work for someone else. That’s not a bad thing!

 

[veinbuster]

Well this is an interesting topic.

I would never buy an amp based on on-line demos. I rarely even listen to them. If I do it’s to see setting for an amp I have, to help me dial in one of the channels. I probably wouldn’t buy an amp based on a live demo, but I would go from a live demo to trying one myself.

If I wasn’t space constrained, I would probably have twice as many amps as I do. Mrs authorized me getting a bunch of lunch box amps a few years ago, but I filled that bookcase with other stuff that didn’t require pulling stuff out and plugging in more cables - though I may adopt the Tosca mini plan and get there yet.

I really like the Kemper. It lets me poke at the nature of amps without buying them. But I almost always use hot tubes at home. The Kemper is mostly for travel.

 

[Huggy Love]

it's a great time to be a hobby guitarist, there's a ton of good sounding gear that's more relatively affordable than ever before.

Very true.

 

[Huggy Love]

Sounds like you're having lots of fun trying all this gear out.

....But what exactly are you trying to find? I get the impression that it needs to be relatively small/lightweight, and be able to do a decent level of overdrive by itself without the need for pedals., but are we talking classic rock level of gain, or metal?
And what about power? You've got some 5-15-20 watters on your list so I'm assuming that you don't need something that can fill a stadium all by itself, and doesn't need to have lots of clean headroom.

Which amp out of the ones that you've tried has come the closest so far, and why, and what let it down? What feature is the deal breaker that it must have, or is everything up for play if it scores enough points elsewhere?

What about a valve overdrive pedal like the Victory V4 pedals into something a bit more plain. My first amp was a Laney LC15R 15 watt valve amp. It was cheap and didn't sound that great, specially overdriven. I also had a POD at the time, that also never sounded great by itself. But the POD plugged into the effect return of the Laney wasn't too bad, and enabled me to get all kinds of high gain sounds at bedroom levels that I just couldn't get by running them by themselves.

Tone, you're very perceptive. I'm gonna try to answer all those questions.

- I'm wavering between a recording only tube head for rock lead tones (that can go to metal if I had to) or something 2 channel that can record rock leads and do a small jazz gig every once in a while. Wattage is the factor there, 20w is a little weak to do a clean channel jazz thing with a drummer & stand up bass, and 10w is too loud for home recording rock leads. I don't want a swiss army knife cause I live mainly in two places: George Benson/Wes/Joe Pass-land or the Carlos Santana/Jeff Beck zone, ..... although every once in a while I go EVH/Rhoads to relive my past.

- Power? 1w 2w 5w are best for home recording, 50w is best to do a clean channel jazz gig. Not a lot of common ground in that configuration or amps that do that. I will say that "Power Scaling" performed much better that switchable power or attenuators, something about dialing a knob and relying on your ears rather than a preset wattage made a world of difference to me.

-What came close? Too much on the list but the Suhr badger was the only one that had that love at first note kinda thing, although the price, mid gain structure, sgl channel, and the fact I don't like dirt pedals kills it for me. High quality piece though. Archon clean channel impressed me more that the lead, just too heavy, too much wattage.

- Tube OD pedals are a way to go but that's only living off the preamp tubes, better than SS but less dynamic that all tube action. There's actually a few little cheap amps that do that fairly well like the Joyo Bantamp and they're dirt cheap too. I was doing that kinda thing before I went Mesa, with a Peavey rack preamp and a SS power amp. It was uber reliable and I could get a decent 80's brown sound, just not very nuanced in tone.

- RE:cheap - I had hoped to ........... maybe I should just go buy a blackstar HT-1 head.

........................ NOT!!

 

[Huggy Love]

If you’re a player like me who loves that style of playing, the best single channel amps do that far better than even the finest two channel amps. It’s just a fact

So much good info in that post Mr Wizard!!, and yes we are still on the board of directors of the He-Man Modeler Haters Committee.

I'm not like you though in the just slightly broken up rock tones, I never was that guy reaching for SRV, etc. I only use that for jazz. My rock thing is heavier and I'm not really a blues guy.

... but the following statement is where I think you are wrong, ......on this rare occasion.

It's not a fact, and after doing all the testing lately I'm confirmed that a top 2 channel can do both as well as any sgl channel, and then some. I was always able to do AC/DC in the clean channel pushed, and I could do Jazz in the lead channel with the gain down low in the vintage setting on my Mesa amps.

Sgl channel amp don't do it better, it's just done differently, the old way.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Wattage is the factor there, 20w is a little weak to do a clean channel jazz thing with a drummer & stand up bass....

I would debate that with you.

My Mesa 22 watt is incredibly loud, clean!

The volume pot is quite sensitive, but in general I don’t use the main volume any higher than 1 1/2 - 2!

It would work very nicely with a Jazz trio or do the Rock thing as well.

But that’s just from my experience.

 

[pac90]

you liked the suhr, have a watch and see if this one ticks a few boxes?

and pedals, but not as you know it jim, valve pedals for the purist

 

[Boogie]

I would debate that with you.

My Mesa 22 watt is incredibly loud, clean!

The volume pot is quite sensitive, but in general I don’t use the main volume any higher than 1 1/2 - 2!

It would work very nicely with a Jazz trio or do the Rock thing as well.

But that’s just from my experience.

That’s the perfect exception...Mesa/Boogie. The Mark series in Class A mode - 20-25w (triode vs pentode) - will melt your face! Having gigged it that way for years, I can confirm that it will blow away a hard hitting drummer...even clean. Played dozens of vintage rock (50s-60s) gigs against another guitarist with a 65 Twin and had zero trouble competing. But if you want the serious non-compressed bottom end, I had to go back to AB and 85W.

The Super Dallas is an absolutely deliciously warm amp for clean. Better than my Bassman. Better than my Twin by miles. 50w is perfect for clean and warm, IMO. Thats why I have the pedals I do. When it’s time to get rambunctious, stomp on a Klon!

Dirt...30w
Clean...50w

 

[Tone-y]

- Tube OD pedals are a way to go but that's only living off the preamp tubes, better than SS but less dynamic that all tube action

I really meant the tube od pedal into a value amp, but one that doesn't have much of a gain sound by itself to turn a single channel amp into a pseudo two channel amp. The victory pedals can be set up "4 cable method" with a bypass of the pedal into the normal front of the amp for your clean sound, then the active on signal routed to the effects loop bypassing the amp preamp valves and using the pedal preamp valves for your rawk sounds.

Why don't you like dirt pedals? I mean, sure, I prefer the natural overdrive tones from my two cornfords to any OD pedal into a clean amp (ok, there's a lot of od pedals I've never tried). But an OD pedal into an already driving amp is really good. For a great Carlos singing lead tone a la dumble or boogie, my Cornford carerra being pushed by a klon clone, and at sensible volumes.

 

[Huggy Love]

Why don't you like dirt pedals?

But an OD pedal into an already driving amp is really good. For a great Carlos singing lead tone a la dumble or boogie, my Cornford carerra being pushed by a klon clone, and at sensible volumes.

-Putting your signal thru a circuit before it hits the amp will take some of the dynamics and articulation out of the situation, and I've always relied on my fingers for effects instead of pedals. For many years I used only an amp that had reverb and that's it, I got used to the directness and lack of any latency I guess.

-If you have an amp that already drives, you don't need one.

-They just sound like solid state to me.

-For a great Carlos tone................... Mesa.

 

[László]

So much good info in that post Mr Wizard!!, and yes we are still on the board of directors of the He-Man Modeler Haters Committee.

I'm not like you though in the just slightly broken up rock tones, I never was that guy reaching for SRV, etc. I only use that for jazz. My rock thing is heavier and I'm not really a blues guy.

... but the following statement is where I think you are wrong, ......on this rare occasion.

It's not a fact, and after doing all the testing lately I'm confirmed that a top 2 channel can do both as well as any sgl channel, and then some. I was always able to do AC/DC in the clean channel pushed, and I could do Jazz in the lead channel with the gain down low in the vintage setting on my Mesa amps.

Sgl channel amp don't do it better, it's just done differently, the old way.

I’ve played through most of the amps you’ve mentioned, so I’ll disagree a little bit. However, as I said, there’s no right or wrong to this stuff. By all means, do what works for you. All any of us are in it for, including at the pro level, is to get the sound we want!

 

[Huggy Love]

I’ve played through most of the amps you’ve mentioned, so I’ll disagree a little bit. However, as I said, there’s no right or wrong to this stuff. By all means, do what works for you. All any of us are in it for, including at the pro level, is to get the sound we want!

I was basing that off of the Mesa Mark IV and Rectoverb I owned not the other stuff.

Didn't have the time to get that intimate with all the tested stuff, just testing overall tone and flexibility. As you probably already know, a lot of the time you know within a few minutes if a piece is going to work for you.

 

[László]

I was basing that off of the Mesa Mark IV and Rectoverb I owned not the other stuff.

Didn't have the time to get that intimate with all the tested stuff, just testing overall tone and flexibility. As you probably already know, a lot of the time you know within a few minutes if a piece is going to work for you.

Ah. Well, we’re not too dissimilar; I like Mesas, too!

I had a Mark V, a Tremoverb, a Maverick, a Blue Angel, a Subway Rocket, and currently have a Lone Star and Fillmore, in addition to the PRS single channel amps. And I’ve absolutely liked them all - I simply use them for different things!

And a Bogner single channel amp at some point. Of course, way back when, a Blackface Bassman was my main amp, but I go back to two 1966 Ampeg Reverberocket IIs in single-channel-land.

Other 2 channel amps over the last 15-20 years include 5 or 6 Two-Rocks, a Bad Cat, a TOL 50, and a few other random things, all very fine amps!

I can’t say I’ve bought a truly bad amp since 1966 (I was never over the moon about the Ampegs, that’s when my Dad bought them for me and my brother).

However, my experience is that 2 channel amps, as great as they can be, behave differently than single channel amps. I appreciate and like that difference!

That doesn’t make 2 Channel amps worse, they’re just different. It’s all preference.

However, you asked why someone would want a single channel amp, or a low gain amp, and I gave my best answer. (Shrug) Maybe your question was rhetorical.

 

[Huggy Love]

Maybe your question was rhetorical.

In some ways it was, and I am very familiar with the single channel concept of rolling down the volume on the guitar to get clean and turn it up to get dirt and power. When I'm in Carlos/EVH mode that's how I do it and never go to the clean channel.

But I still do feel that a good lead channel with a wide gain variance can do anything a sgl channel amp can do just as well.

 

[László]

But I still do feel that a good lead channel with a wide gain variance can do anything a sgl channel amp can do just as well.

Too bad you’re not in the neighborhood so you can hear and feel the difference on my amps.

 

[Huggy Love]

Too bad you’re not in the neighborhood so you can hear and feel the difference on my amps.

Dude........ I would be all over that one, you'd have to kick me out the house after a while.

..... but I'd have to stop by Greektown for some Souvlaki first.

 

[Boogie]

Thro

Dude........ I would be all over that one, you'd have to kick me out the house after a while.

..... but I'd have to stop by Greektown for some Souvlaki first.

Throw in a bunch of saginaki and Keo/Mythos and count me in!

Dammit, now I’m hungry.

 

[Huggy Love]

Thro

Throw in a bunch of saginaki and Keo/Mythos and count me in!

Dammit, now I’m hungry.

Beer?.....

No man, in the south they drink Retsina.

 

[Tone-y]

Putting your signal thru a circuit before it hits the amp will take some of the dynamics and articulation out of the situation, and I've always relied on my fingers for effects instead of pedals. For many years I used only an amp that had reverb and that's it, I got used to the directness and lack of any latency I guess.

Well this is true to an extent whether your drive is coming from the amp, pedal or a combination of both. You're compressing and clipping the signal and it doesn't really matter whether that's done by valves, transistors or Op Amps as far as dynamics go. Obviously some circuits are better than others. And I don't mean that you use a lot of drive on your OD pedals when done this way so you're not stomping all over your amp's natural drive sound.
And latency - for an analog pedal this is the same as plugging in direct to the amp.
But I do get it, a few years ago when I was single and could spend the evening playing through a real amp I would just have the guitar, cord and amp and didn't need anything else. I was bemused by these guys that would get a clean amp and put an OD pedal in front and then gush about what wonderful drive they were getting. No, the Cornford with the preamp up had good drive. Since then I've my tastes have expanded a bit more and I appreciate a few more flavors of drive, plus I've got a bit more savvy about how to dial things in.

If you have an amp that already drives, you don't need one.

I don't disagree, though they can add flavors. But the point was that you're looking for a new amp, so I was suggesting that an amp that maybe doesn't drive as much as you want by itself plus an OD pedal might open up some options - enable you to get an amp that can do the jazz side with its clean headroom, plus drive heavy enough - and quiet enough to do the rawk and recording thing.

-They just sound like solid state to me.

They don't have to

For a great Carlos tone................... Mesa.

The point was to get a Carlos tone but at 5 watts. Otherwise just get the Mesa. But hasn't he used Dumbles over the past few albums? Dumbles have a FET stage in their front end

 

[László]

Dude........ I would be all over that one, you'd have to kick me out the house after a while.

..... but I'd have to stop by Greektown for some Souvlaki first.

Couple good places there, though the restaurants aren’t as wonderful as they once were as a new generation has taken over. I’m all in on the retsina, though.

Dunno if you’re into it, but there are tremendously great Lebanese restaurants in the Detroit area, if you like Mediterranean ethnic foods; also very fine Northern Italian.