S2 standard 24 tuning woes - help!

[Jon87]

Hello, new member here. I have a S2 Standard 24 Satin I bought new a couple of weeks ago. The guitar plays and sounds fantastic, but I'm having a terrible time with tuning stability with the trem and I'm hoping to get some ideas before I admit defeat.

First, before anyone says it given this is a common topic, I have searched the forum but haven't found a solution yet. Second, it's not the nut. I've already filed the nut properly, tried nut-sauce/graphite/etc, and then replaced it with a tusq nut. It's not the nut. Third, I have a couple strats (6 pt trem and 2 pt trem) and a floyd rose guitar. It's not really relevant to this issue, but I just want to point out that I think my expectations for what this trem should be able to do are reasonable based on the other trems I have.

With that out of the way, here's what's going on. With even light trem use the low E and A (and sometimes D) come back about a half-step sharp. Bending the offending strings heavily brings them back to pitch. I know this sounds like a nut issue, which is why I initially focussed on that, but it's not. I can gently lift the strings out of the nut slot to let the tension equalize on either side and they still come back sharp. If I tug on the string near the saddle, the pitch returns correctly. So it sounds to me that something is going on with the trem somewhere.

Here's what I've tried:
-filed nut, lubricated nut, replaced nut. No change
-tightened locking tuners to headstock. No change
-tried new strings, old strings, 9's, 10's, different brands. The nut is filed for 10's. No change
-sanded and polished the saddle grooves, thinking that the string was grabbing somewhere. No change
-lubricated the saddles and 6 trem screws. No change
-raised and lowered bridge (without string/spring tension). No change
-tried multiple bridge angles (horizontal, tipped forward, tipped backward). No change
-disassembled the bridge completely to examine. The 6 screws are sort of inconsistent looking, but it looks like they're manufactured that way rather than damaged. It's the same story for the knife edge. It's not really very sharp, but it appears that it's just manufactured that way and not damaged or gouged.

Any suggestions? I'm about out of ideas here. Looking at the trem closely during operation, it almost looks like it's rocking very slightly side to side with most of the movement on the low E side. It could be just my imagination though, but it seems a little sloppy overall (the 6 screws are level). I don't really want to return it (or know that I can given how much I've messed with it), or replace the bridge with a MannMade, but I could I guess.

I haven't reached out to PRS for help yet, but that's my next step if I can't figure this out. Any help is appreciated. Like I said at the start, I really like the guitar otherwise and I just want to get this sorted out. Thanks!

 

[bodia]

IIRC, on a similar post somewhere here, one member mentioned that he "beat the snot" out of his trem and his issues went away. Basically, breaking it in. Lots of heavy divebomb type use to stretch the springs, etc. I know it's not a very technical answer, but I'm sure you get the drift. Also, trem stability is a staple for PRS. It should be rock solid. I have several, and have never had an issue.

BTW, welcome to the Forum.

 

[AP515]

I was going to suggest you reset the 6 screws thinking the two on the low end might be higher than the rest so the knife edge was not setting in the groove, but if you have pulled the trem then you had to reset them putting it back on. You can send it back and have it worked on. It's under warranty.

 

[Jon87]

IIRC, on a similar post somewhere here, one member mentioned that he "beat the snot" out of his trem and his issues went away. Basically, breaking it in. Lots of heavy divebomb type use to stretch the springs, etc. I know it's not a very technical answer, but I'm sure you get the drift. Also, trem stability is a staple for PRS. It should be rock solid. I have several, and have never had an issue.

BTW, welcome to the Forum.

Thanks. Yeah, I was surprised to have such trouble with the trem given the reputation. The 6 pt trem strat I mentioned has pretty poor stability but it's better than the S2 at the moment. I should've mentioned that the S2 has been like this since day 1. I haven't made it worse, but I certainly haven't made it better yet.

I did see the thread you mentioned about working in the trem. I'm a little reluctant to do that just yet in case there is something going on with the screws / knife-edge. I wouldn't want to work in some damage. But, the screws all seem to be level so I'm not sure what could go wrong here...

 

[Jon87]

I was going to suggest you reset the 6 screws thinking the two on the low end might be higher than the rest so the knife edge was not setting in the groove, but if you have pulled the trem then you had to reset them putting it back on. You can send it back and have it worked on. It's under warranty.

The knife edge is definitely set in the groove ok. I've played around with various heights of the 6 screws (again, without tension) to see how it behaves. It's quite sensitive to even tiny changes in height. I can get it so there seems to be even, smooth contact across all 6. Maybe once tension is applied something is shifting? It's difficult to root cause as I can't really see anything shifting or hear anything pinging.

 

[bodia]

Well, I would probably contact your dealer then and go the warranty route. That's the best course of action. Sucks, but you'll be taken care of. Great customer service at PRS.

 

[MichaelRocks]

I had pretty much exact experience with my Custom 24 2016 (not and SE or S2, it's core USA guitar) which I bought in April. Went through the same route as you did, then to customer support (UK), which were very nice and helpful, did a very meticulous examination of the guitar, replaced whole bridge etc. I really appreciated that and I must say that they are top notch guys. However it won't change the fact that guitar still goes out of tune at the slightest use of tremolo (this is after official PRS service repair). It's not massive out of tune, 10-20 cents at random, which goes away after a bend, but I can hear it very clearly. I am 100% sure there is some sort of binding on tremolo side, because when I leave the guitar for a day then use the tremolo it pings at tremolo side, it's really obvious. Just for reference, I bought a standard USA Strat since then and after rather straightforward setup I have none of these problems with tremolo.I have a couple of other guitars with locking tremolos and they might go out of tune very slightly if I grab and lift them using just tremolo arm.

I've been really curious about this, so I went to my local shop (armed with peterson strobo HD tuner) which has a really big PRS stock, tried a couple of different guitars (2015 30th and 2016, all of them had the same flaw - immediately out of tune after tremolo use. These bridges look pretty, but the quality of vital parts may not be there.

I've locked the tremolo for now because guitar was unusable otherwise, my luthier who I trust says that there is a chance to correct this, but I didn't have time to do this yet. I will not get another PRS with non-locking floating tremolo.

Last but not least, I doubt you will get any help here. Any criticism will get your post locked and/or deleted.

 

[Jon87]

MichaelRocks, that story isn't exactly encouraging haha. I also have a USA strat with 2 pt trem and it's as stable out of the box as my Floyd Rose guitar, even with repeated dive bombs. I don't mean this to be a fender vs prs discussion or anything. It's just the trem designs are not that wildly different, so I'd like to think I can get similar performance out of the prs.

I made a little bit of progress last night but it's still an issue. I found that pushing on the tuner posts slightly after using the trem could bring the string back to pitch. I already tightened them before, but went over them again until they stopped doing that. I also found the 3 big screws that hold the bridge plate to the trem block were a little loose. Tightening those up along with an hour of working the trem while watching tv helped a tiny bit. Something is still binding somewhere though...

 

[MichaelRocks]

Jon87, I certainly hope you'll have better luck than myself. These guitars really sound great, that's why I stuck to mine, I just think that tremolo system in them is grossly overrated, it is a mechanically good design. but setup part is way to finicky to get it right on mass produced guitar at the factory. I believe very good luthier can get it right, but it will take a good few hours.

 

[AP515]

Jon87, I certainly hope you'll have better luck than myself. These guitars really sound great, that's why I stuck to mine, I just think that tremolo system in them is grossly overrated, it is a mechanically good design. but setup part is way to finicky to get it right on mass produced guitar at the factory. I believe very good luthier can get it right, but it will take a good few hours.

Your position is completely understandable seeing how you have gone through such trouble. But history and experience seem to well establish that the trem on a PRS is one of the best out there. There are many more experiences different from yours, than the same. Again I suggest that rather than form your opinion based on one bad experience, let the factory have a go at it and see if they find the problem. There are many here, including me, who can attest to a very stable and pleasing trem experience.

 

[MichaelRocks]

Your position is completely understandable seeing how you have gone through such trouble. But history and experience seem to well establish that the trem on a PRS is one of the best out there. There are many more experiences different from yours, than the same. Again I suggest that rather than form your opinion based on one bad experience, let the factory have a go at it and see if they find the problem. There are many here, including me, who can attest to a very stable and pleasing trem experience.

I'd definitely give factory a chance to have a look, but sending the guitar from UK to US is not something I am comfortable doing. I also have no reason to think that UK PRS service is in any way "worse" than US one - they did treat me very nicel and replaced the bridge/put a lot of work into it. I just decided that my expectations were too high and moved on

Jon, if you are in US or UK, send the guitar straight back to PRS service, this is your only chance. I'd not mess with it, unless you really enjoy messing around . I'd contact PRS directly, they are really helpful and will arrange shipping with the dealer you bought from.

 

[AP515]

I'd definitely give factory a chance to have a look, but sending the guitar from UK to US is not something I am comfortable doing. I also have no reason to think that UK PRS service is in any way "worse" than US one - they did treat me very nicel and replaced the bridge/put a lot of work into it. I just decided that my expectations were too high and moved on

Perhaps you can ask for a replacement guitar. There should be no reason to just live with it.

 

[andy474x]

It sounds like maybe there's something going on in the trem that grabs the spring when you use it, somehow pulling the ball end of the string further down? Is it pulling an actual half step sharp, as in from E all the way to F? That's not normal at all... I believe you, just want you to know it should be better. And PRS will make it right if that's the case.

A good way to tell if the problem is in the nut is to work the trem so it pulls the string sharp, then grab the string behind the nut and bend it down toward the headstock, then check the intonation again to see if it came back at all. Just an idea. If it's not that, try putting lubricant in the trem - saddle, even the trem block might help. If it's really in the trem, it's highly abnormal and PRS will help you fix it.

As for reference to what's normal, I put the Tusq nut on one of my customs, and it stays in tune with anything short of dive bombing, to within a couple cents - usually I can't detect any change in intonation unless I absolutely floor the trem arm. If I do dive bomb, it goes out a little, but not nearly a half step. My trem is set up so it'll pull up about half a step, and if I do that after the dive, it'll pull things back to pitch. Let's get this one figured out!

 

[Jon87]

It sounds like maybe there's something going on in the trem that grabs the spring when you use it, somehow pulling the ball end of the string further down? Is it pulling an actual half step sharp, as in from E all the way to F? That's not normal at all... I believe you, just want you to know it should be better. And PRS will make it right if that's the case.

A good way to tell if the problem is in the nut is to work the trem so it pulls the string sharp, then grab the string behind the nut and bend it down toward the headstock, then check the intonation again to see if it came back at all. Just an idea. If it's not that, try putting lubricant in the trem - saddle, even the trem block might help. If it's really in the trem, it's highly abnormal and PRS will help you fix it.

As for reference to what's normal, I put the Tusq nut on one of my customs, and it stays in tune with anything short of dive bombing, to within a couple cents - usually I can't detect any change in intonation unless I absolutely floor the trem arm. If I do dive bomb, it goes out a little, but not nearly a half step. My trem is set up so it'll pull up about half a step, and if I do that after the dive, it'll pull things back to pitch. Let's get this one figured out!

It started out as almost exactly a half step shift, but I've managed to improve that somewhat with the things I've tried. I'm sure it's in the trem at this point. Nothing I can do at the nut or tuners shifts the pitch at all, except for turning the tuner keys of course. I'm using fender super bullet strings so it might be possible the ball end is moving around a bit or not seating properly? I did lubricate everywhere the string touches, including the ball end, and it still happens.

I have a bridge I pulled off my prs se 7 string a while back (different issue). I dug it out thinking I might try swapping in some of those saddles but I noticed in the saddle grooves from the wound strings I can see a bunch of tiny grooves from the string winding gouged into the saddle. I already sanded the grooves a bit on the S2 but maybe something similar is happening and the strings are catching. Is that normal? It's the only guitar I have that I've noticed that on.

Does anyone know the shape of the feature inside the trem block that the string ball end rests against? Radius? Chamfer? Flat? Maybe the super bullet ball end profile doesn't agree well with it. I do notice that it's unusually difficult to get the ball ends out when changing strings. For those of you with stable trems, what strings are you using? I'd be surprised if that's the issue, I'm just looking for other things to try. I did try daddarios early on and they also had the same tuning issue.

I could also try heavier gauge strings to see if keeping a bit more tension will help maybe? I'm a little reluctant to mess around with the nut more to acommodate that though...

 

[andy474x]

I use DR strings with mine, just a plain bead-like ball end, same as found on the PRS branded strings.

 

[gush]

6 of my prs guitars are trems. They all work fairly well. They will not perform as well as a Floyd but they do work pretty well.

I use NYXLs but I seem to remember using a pack of bullets that I had laying around quite a while ago. I also seem to remember having issues with the bullets.

Good luck and please keep us posted

 

[Jon87]

Ok, some updates. I did speak to PRS and they were very helpful and offered to help. But, I'm not quite ready to give up yet, and the possibility of having to pay for a pricey setup is not super appealing though I'm sure they could make it right.

I did end up putting a mannmade mil-com bridge on. It did help a bit but the issue wasn't resolved. Overall, it's a much nicer bridge than the SE bridge that comes on the S2. The tolerances are clearly a lot tighter and it feels much smoother. I no longer think there's any trouble in the bridge.

Then, I started over on the nut. I ordered a couple new PRS core nuts after trashing the others I had by experimenting. The new nut did require a bit of filing to get the funnel cut correctly and sanding the bottom to get the height right. The issue is still there but not nearly as bad as the half step shift that was happening at first. It's still noticeable enough that the trem isn't usable.

Now, when I use the trem some strings still come up sharp, typically the wound strings but not always. If I gently pull on the tuner post of the sharp string in the direction of the nut the string returns to pitch correctly. So, now it seems like the tuner post is shifting around? Has anybody seen this before? Anything I can do to fix this (lubricate something)? The nuts that hold the tuner down to the headstock are plenty tight.

 

[charliefrench]

I am thinking neck instability could be a possibilité. Does it return to pitch if you pull towards the nut on any of the tuning posts, not just the tuner connected to the affected string? Have you checked the truss rod to ensure it is not slack?

Also, have you tried adding another spring in the trem?

 

[ReptilianNosewood]

I recently overcame my tuning woes with my CU24 trem, 2 "guitar techs" couldnt figure it out so i got some new nuts and went at it. One thing i was overlooking was the back end of the trem being totally level on both sides, i measured it and got it dead on which helped immensly. Every other problem seemed to be with the nut so i would tune to pitch, then go one at a time and pushed down on the string behind the nut, if it didnt come back to pitch i widened it a little bit, then took some 600 grit sandpaper in there to polish it so it was totally smooth, lubed it and then tested behind the nut again, if it didnt return to pitch i did it again. I did this for every string and it finally worked. I really underestimated how smooth inside the slot should be, it needs to be like glass in there. To help i got a jewlers loupe with the light and magnifying glasses so i could go into as much detail as possible. I also made a little " ramp"at the end of the nut where the string breaks to go to the tuner, i ramped it to the left for the low strings, and to the right for the high strings, not severe but enough to make the trip even smoother for the string. And keep in mind i did all this and got it in perfect tune, then realized the trem was leaning too far forward, so i tightened it up to get it to level, and it would not hold tune anymore. Just chaging the angle of the trem required i do some small detailed filing to get it to stay in tune again because the angle changed. Every little adjustment you make affects something else so you almost have to shoehorn it in. Sorry that was not formatted and long winded, was just trying to jam all the info i could think of into this since i literally just got done getting mine to stay in tune after over a year of it not, i know how frustrating it can be. Hope some of this is helpful.

 

[Jon87]

Thanks for all the feedback. The truss rod is adjusted correctly. Reptillian, I know what you're saying about polishing the grooves in the nut. I went through all that, including ramping the profile of the grooves left and right for low and high strings and polishing. Pushing the string down behind the nut does not result in any tuning shift. I did play around with the trem angle (both front to back and left to right) but it didn't seem to make a difference.

I'm pretty sure it's something in the tuners though now. If I pull on the strings (like you would stretch new strings) I can clearly see the post (not the base) moving back and forth. There seems to be some slop in the tuners causing the pitch problems. Unfortunately, the S2 tuners don't have any obvious replacement options I could find without drilling holes. So, long story short, I returned the guitar. I like tinkering but this is too much headache, even though I like it in every other way. Thanks for the help all.