Question about Trem Blocking, Trem Blocks, and Tone

RedJamaX

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Just of note, I am aware that nearly everything about "tone" is mostly about personal preference.... until you enter the complete suck zone of really cheap guitars in which the phrase "lifeless" could be applied. Also, my posts tend to be long winded... mostly because, if the answers were easy to find, I wouldn't spend 30 minutes writing a post to ask. Please read the whole post, many people like to respond to question #1 by providing information that is already known, and clarified further down in question #3. And, the "buy it and try it" answer is the absolute worst response ever... if "you" have a relentless supply of money and time for your guitars, awesome... but if we all did, many of these posts might not exist.

Moving on... I just don't use my trem... I like the added sustain of fixed bridges, and the longer lasting tuning, especially with locking trem... and I know these items are also mostly about preference...

My questions: If these have been asked and answered, I apologize for the repetition, but I searched for several hours over the last few days and did not find information that directly addressed any of this by way of personal experience, or by way of audio/visual evidence... There are bits and pieces of information here and there, and lots of people making "claims" with no information or knowledge to back it up... but nothing conclusive.
So, to be clear... I'm looking for; 1) personal experience with these exact questions; 2) Links to Audio/Visual evidence; 3) Answers with knowledge to back it up... If you have just "heard" of something before, that's not really evidence regardless of how many times you've heard it.

Guitar being referenced: PRS SE Custom 24... (Mahogany Body, Maple Top, OEM PRS SE Floating Trem Bridge)

1. If I'm going to block the trem (make it a "fixed" bridge)... does a higher quality trem block make a difference?
--- IF you DO NOT block the trem... There are plenty of videos that clearly show the tonal effects of replacing a cheap trem block with a better / different one.... Going from cheap MiM Strat-Block to Heavy Brass/Steel is far more noticeable than just switching Heavy Brass to Heavy Steel... but the differences are still there.
--- My guess is "Not Likely"... I could see how a heavier, or different material block would affect tone if you let the Trem Float... but once you fix it, I would think that the tonal effects of contact with the guitar body would overshadow any real effect that might be heard from a different material, or heavier block. The exception to this might be in the method of blocking...

2. "Proper" Method of blocking?? Tremolo-No... Wood Block on Spring Side... Wood Block on Butt Side... More specifically, is there any reason to do it one way or another that is NOT related to preference of tone?? ie, damage to the guitar?
2a. --- I've blocked my ESP LTD MH-350FR before by placing a piece of hardwood between the trem-block and the guitar body on the SPRING SIDE. It seems to me that this is the best way to actually block the trem if you want it to act like a fixed bridge. Even the Tremolo-No uses this approach. But when searching for the information, it's far more common to see people placing the wood block on the Butt End side of the trem-block. Why?? Is it just because it's easier? Or maybe because somebody famous used that method "first", and now it's about "replicating" his tone???
2b. --- To Clarify... I would think that if you really like the tone you have now, but want to Fix/Block the Trem, then the Tremolo-No would be the best option as it makes the least amount of contact between the bridge and the guitar body. HOWEVER, if you are going for more of the Fixed-Bridge feel, a block of wood should give better results... with the best results being with the block on the Spring-Side of the Trem-Block. Yes? No?

3. Any differences in tone or feel, when considering which Method of Blocking, AND Quality of the Trem Block. For example... Would you hear/feel a difference between blocking a cheap OEM trem, vs blocking one that's got an upgraded brass block?
3a. --- My Guess is that it depends on the method of blocking.... So YES, it makes a difference if you use the Tremolo-No, due to the minimal amount of contact, the heavier trem-block will be noticable... but NO difference if you block it with a well-fitted piece of hardwood, as the more substantial surface area of the contact with the body will overshadow the effects of a heavier trem-block.
3b. --- The exception might be dependent on where the end of the strings sit on the different trem-blocks. My PRS SE trem-block allows the strings to pass all the way through so that the rings on the end make contact against the bridge plate. Most of the trem-block upgrades stop the strings within the first inch of the trem-block. So if the upgraded block did not allow the strings to pass all the way through to the bridge plate, then I think there would be a noticeable difference even when blocking the rem with a piece of well fitted hardwood.

4. Looking for opinions on my plan....
4a. --- Blocking the trem with a piece of hardwood on the Spring-Side of the SE's steel trem-block. (see the picture of my ESP bocked below)
4b. --- String extension through the existing block. Using a small flat steel plate, drill 6 holes big enough for strings to pass through and affix it to the end of the SE's steel trem-block (maybe using a small amount of epoxy putty, or epoxy glue). This way the string ends stop at the end of the block instead of passing through to the back of the bridge plate.
--- My considerations.
1) My SE already has a fairly dark tone (which I really like), and the SE Trem already has a decent, not "great", but decent steel trem-block. If the material makes a difference with a Spring-Side Wood Block, then a Brass block would make it darker... But a Steel block would likely have no effect unless it was at least double the weight of the existing one...
2) String Extension idea... I might have to add some foam or some of that blue sticky putty inside the string cavities to prevent any residual vibration noise... just enough to silence any vibration, but not enough to make changing the strings a painful process.

Like I said, long winded... but I've tried to address every consideration I can think of in the opening post. I'm curious to know what you guys think about any of this. Any information you can provide is appreciated.

Pictures... Black = LTD 350, Red = SE Custom24

http://imgur.com/VvniH53

http://imgur.com/UNqNoai
 
The simple answer is read Paul Smith's rules of tone. The basic theory is that everything on a guitar is subtractive. The rationale is that things that subtract from tone should be eliminated, reduced or replaced with a better solution.
Learn from someone who has spent his lifetime learning how to build a better instrument...

If you are interested in my observations regarding guitar bridges and the effects it has on tone, I would be happy to share them with you. I have a few ideas...
 
I would take Johns offer on advice if I were you !!!!! lets just say he knows a thing or two about bridges :)

Have you thought about trying to trade for a hardtail SE PRS ?

Now my take

In the guitars that I have blocked the trem on I have placed a block of hardwood ( Mohagony , alder etc ) behind the trem block and loosen the trem screws until block it held tight against the body
this will allow you to use the trem ( drop only ) if you like and give you some additional tuning stability ( on strats and such ) and I felt like I also got a bit of extra sustain and thump.
That said I find the PRS / Mann Made trem to be the best I have ever played and would never think of needing or wanting to block one or add a Trem-no , I have used Trem-Nos on several guitars and was never happy.
 
The simple answer is read Paul Smith's rules of tone. The basic theory is that everything on a guitar is subtractive. The rationale is that things that subtract from tone should be eliminated, reduced or replaced with a better solution.
Learn from someone who has spent his lifetime learning how to build a better instrument...

If you are interested in my observations regarding guitar bridges and the effects it has on tone, I would be happy to share them with you. I have a few ideas...

^This dude knows what he's talking about...
 
I blocked my Custom 24 in two different ways at different times. First by using two wedges of maple in the gap behind the block and later with a Tremol-no. It's been many years, but I don't remember any significant tonal difference either way. I do however remember a tonal improvement when I went to the MannMade 1-piece trem.

The feel is a little different when the trem can't move. There's usually a slinky feel with a trem; you'll notice that the bridge moves when you bend strings. That obviously doesn't happen when it's locked down. So if you want to keep that feel, a partial block for down-only functionality is a good idea.

I think the Tremol-no is an elegant solution if you want the best of all worlds.

I have silenced trem springs simply by putting a folded paper towel between the springs and back plate. A more elegant solution I've seen is to insert rubber tubing inside the springs.
 
The simple answer is read Paul Smith's rules of tone. The basic theory is that everything on a guitar is subtractive. The rationale is that things that subtract from tone should be eliminated, reduced or replaced with a better solution.
Learn from someone who has spent his lifetime learning how to build a better instrument...

If you are interested in my observations regarding guitar bridges and the effects it has on tone, I would be happy to share them with you. I have a few ideas...

Hi John,

Definitely interested to get your take on things!
 
Have you thought about trying to trade for a hardtail SE PRS ?

Thanks! I took me a while to find this SE 24 that I traded my SE Santana for... I wanted the 24 specifically because I really like the way the neck feels, and the "new" guitar is providing a bit of motivation to start playing a little more again... so I really don't want to hold out and try to trade this for a hard tail... Aside from that, I recently put a lot of work into re-wiring and changing the pickups. The G&B's are decent, but I just wanted something a bit different. Currently has JB in the bridge and GFS Liverpool in the neck with single/series/parallel switching, and phase reversal for a variety of sounds. And now I'm looking for a different neck pickup because the GFS sounds so much better in the guitar I pulled it from, so it's going back. The JB sounds better in this one.

Here's a post that has my wiring and the work I've done if you want to check it out:
http://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/wiring-color-code-for-se-model-g-b-pickups.22417/#post-318832
 
CORRECTION: Section 3 indicates that my PRS SE block allows the strings to pass through all the way... that's not true. The springs stop about half way into the steel block.
 
928895_1602101833360592_1776161998_n.jpg


How it's done.
 
Maybe this weekend... when I'm not out in the shop making parts ;-)

Just got my SE Brass Block in yesterday from your shop... I've got some wiring changes in progress and then I'll replace the steel block and see how I like it.
 
prs ptc says they will not work on a john mann bridge they say they cant set the intonation on them.told me sorry
 
This can't be correct you can get a Mann Bridge on a Private Stock if you want there would be no reason if you had a Mann Bridge on your guitar or wanted PTC to install one that they would not do it.

prs ptc says they will not work on a john mann bridge they say they cant set the intonation on them.told me sorry
 
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