CITES Appendix II

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Shawn@PRS, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    249
    An interim update. I bought a new Private Stock 594 from a dealer in Germany on 6/20. or 20.06.17 as they say over there. They warned me that it would take 6 to 8 weeks for the Germany government to approve the re-export CITES application and issue a permit. I've tried to not think about it, but I just did. 4 weeks and waiting. Hard to believe I could be writing a month from now saying... maybe... that that step has cleared. I have tentative good news on what I won't need to do on my end, to import this guitar, but right now I don't want to jinx myself, so more later. And we wait.....
     
    bodia likes this.
  2. Basauri

    Basauri Diamonds x Guitars deal with Paul

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    196
    As you could read here https://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/could-you-help-me-finding-the-594.25672/
    i´m going to be in Seattle in a month and my intention was to buy a MC594 but all this CITES situation is taking away my desire. It is supposed that if I carry the guitar with me, I have to justify nothing, but it is recommended to have a Musical Instrument Certificate, which is tedious to obtain. And besides that, there´s another thing I don´t understand: if I carry with me a guitar with no rosewood, I need no certificate. Then, custom officers are checking every single guitar with no certificate in order to verify that has no rosewood?
    This situation is so confusing that I don´t know if taking the risk or abandon my idea of buying my desired PRS :(
     
  3. Whitecat

    Whitecat Goes home to Starla

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    187
    Where are you going back to? You are meant to be able to hand-carry rosewood without any papers - that is how the CITES rules are written. But it's up to each country to determine how to implement, and some countries may be more strict than others.
     
  4. Basauri

    Basauri Diamonds x Guitars deal with Paul

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    196
    Spain, but my worries are about the US Customs, leaving the country with rosewood. It won´t be a commercial transaction, because if I buy the guitar there, the guitar automatically becomes my personal instrument for personal purposes, and I carry it with me as my handbag. But if a customs officer wants to verify the wood on my guitar, there's the problem.
     
  5. Whitecat

    Whitecat Goes home to Starla

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    187
    But if it's travelling with you then you are not in violation of the law if it has no permit - so you would be OK. AFAIK the US "get" this part of the CITES implementation. Carry a copy of/link to the CITES website where this is spelled out - https://www.fws.gov/international/p...appendix-II-timber-listings-December-2016.pdf - see page 18.
     
    Basauri likes this.
  6. Basauri

    Basauri Diamonds x Guitars deal with Paul

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    196
    This is what I though, but it seems that not everybody have this cristal clear. I have read different things in different "official" webs.
    My common sense tells me that me and my legally bought and personal instrument have nothing to do with this import/export situation, but I wouldn't like to be in an unexpected situation minutes before to board my plane.
    Thank you very much for this document, I'll print a copy!
     
    Whitecat likes this.
  7. shinksma

    shinksma What? I get a title?

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,706
    Likes Received:
    1,206
    The US doesn't have exit customs like so many other countries for stuff like departing via airports. So no-one is going to care about or look at your guitar in the US (unless you draw attention to yourself!).

    It is when you land at your destination (or some enroute country) where you may be asked what you have. Check Spain's entry declaration form, it may hint at the types of things you need to declare, beyond the usual weapons, food, visiting a farm, etc.
     
    dogrocketp, Whitecat and Basauri like this.
  8. Atomic

    Atomic Who Dat

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2017
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    147
    NOW yo messin with-a...
     
  9. dmatthews

    dmatthews Dave's not here...

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    789
    Good old Nazareth..:D
     
    Atomic likes this.
  10. Atomic

    Atomic Who Dat

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2017
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    147
    Now when you hear that song you're gonna hear and sing "birch." You're welcome. :cool:
     
  11. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    249
    I wanted to provide a summary of my experience, now that my Private Stock referenced above has been received. Turns out after a lot of fretting about what my responsibilities would be for "importing" a PRS (with rosewood) guitar from a Germany dealer, because of the status of the wood used, I didn't need to do anything. But read on, I'll tell you what that status was, and let you in on a twist in the tale.

    The SC 594 Private Stock I purchased from Thomann Music had a Madagascar rosewood headstock overlay and fretboard. So I was informed by the dealer in Germany (I live in the U.S.) that it would take 6 to 8 weeks to apply to the German government for a re-export CITES certificate. Turns out it took about 5 1/2 weeks, so they were speedy in my case! So step one complete, certified, stamped, and signed re-export German CITES certificate in hand, they can now ship the guitar to me, along with said certificate. They can't really tell me what my obligations are as the "importer" (yes, as a consumer in this situation I am importing the guitar, not just purchasing it.) Duties might or might not apply, and I may have to apply for one or several import applications, possibly with costs, especially since CITES is involved.

    Well, I figured out duties should not be involved, because the guitar was originally manufactured in the U.S. Whether or not U.S. customs figured this out for themselves, I was never asked to pay duties. So I had that going for me. I was fully prepared to have to go through the pain of applying for one or two import certificates with Fish and Wildlife and one other agency, but was never asked for anything from customs except for my social security number when it stopped in Louisville (UPS HQ and Customs entry). I have no idea why they need my social security number, but hey, I wanted the guitar so I called and gave it to UPS.

    So, it's looking like I needn't fill out any paperwork - UPS says it is on it's way to me! I get the guitar (and Thomann supplied paperwork) and it starts to make sense why this was so. On the paperwork, it says "This instrument has been imported/manufactured before the wood that was used has been put under protection of species by the CITES agreement and the EC Council Regulation 338/97. The instrument in question is a registered pre-convention, registered at the supervisory authority of the Bamberg district administration."

    Madagascar rosewood has only been protected by CITES since January 2, 2017. PRS apparently had indicated to Thomann they used "pre-convention" Maddy rosewood for this guitar, meaning they had acquired the wood prior to January 2, 2017, therefore the manufactured guitar is also considered pre-convention. This is most likely why I wasn't required to fill out paperwork, and I only knew this after it was all over. [By the way, don't look to PRS to help with this detailed information, they will only provide it to the dealer upon original shipment, not to the consumer.]

    Now, what's the twist? Thomann identified the rosewood on the guitar as Dalbergia latifolia - East Indian rosewood! So they completely mis-identified the wood, since Madagascar rosewood is Dalbergia baronii or Dalbergia madagascariensis! Hilarious, because it just illustrates what a farce this whole CITES thing is when it comes to "certifying" a retail manufactured guitar for shipment to a consumer. It is so obvious that no rosewood or protected wood will ever be "protected" at this point in the supply chain. So, it's stupid that we consumers should have to be hindered by this process. But, governments are involved, so there you go. The German government who "approved" or "re-certified" the CITES re-export certificate never even saw my guitar, much less could have noticed the rosewood was mis-identified. I get the intention of CITES, but they need to figure out how to stop hindering commerce for nothing. The solution is simple - the manufacturer certifies the product and material used with their government and everything is cool as long as that paperwork stays with the product (guitar). Done. Let's see how long it takes them to figure this out, if they even care.

    Was it worth it, regardless?

    Yep:

    [​IMG]
     
    #51 Guitarsan, Aug 20, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  12. Basauri

    Basauri Diamonds x Guitars deal with Paul

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    196
    Happy ending and a beautiful guitar. Win-win ;)
     
    Guitarsan likes this.
  13. AlienSexGod

    AlienSexGod New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Beautiful Guitar and excellent points However a Cites cert is only useful for one import/export. The manufacturers need to stand behind their woodstock being legal on their database that can be looked up at any time since as you have shown a certificate with the guitar could easily be erroneous either by accident or on purpose!
     
    Guitarsan likes this.
  14. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    249
    Spoke too soon. I noticed buried in my email recently was a bill for 5% duties from UPS. So they weren't smart enough to know... I knew I gave them too much credit. So this story hasn't ended yet, but I handed them the right answer to tell me - that I need to fill out form CBP 311 "Declaration for Free Entry of Returned American Products". I did ask them who I need to send that to, UPS or U.S. Customs. Their reply? A form letter, saying my inquiry had been forwarded to a "Post Entry Analyst" and to please allow 2 to 4 weeks for the Analyst to contact me and "process my claim." And we wait again, but I can jam on my PS in the meantime.
     
    JonW, AlienSexGod and Whitecat like this.
  15. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    249
    I think this is the final chapter in my story as guitar importer. UPS required me to sign an affidavit the guitar was manufactured in the U.S. and also fill out a form with the details about PRS, where they're based, phone numbers, address, etc. It's written as if the manufacturer is supposed to fill it out, but UPS told me I could fill it out, as long as I knew all the information. I submitted it and they removed the duty charge from my account. They also said it could take a few months for the government to review and process this form and officially approve the duty "credit", but UPS is gracious enough to assume they will and credited the billing account. So crossing fingers this is the end of the road.

    Lesson learned? If you live in the U.S. and are buying a PRS guitar from Europe, when UPS International calls you to ask for your social security number for customs records, tell them this is a U.S. manufactured guitar and ask to fill out the paperwork to get a waiver on the duties.
     
  16. JoaoPinheiro

    JoaoPinheiro New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    14
    I live in Europe and own a 2007 PRS Custom 24 with a Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard (Artist Package) that I purchased from the US back in 2009. The retailer never sent me any CITES documents or certificate for this guitar though.

    Does anyone know what my legal situation is with this guitar? What should I do if I need to travel with it or send it to PTC in the US for some kind of repair?
     
  17. AP515

    AP515 Mostly Normal

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,146
    Likes Received:
    760
    Joao nice to see you on here. Been a long time! Sorry I don't have any CITES info for you. Just wanted to say hi.
     
  18. JoaoPinheiro

    JoaoPinheiro New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    14
    Hey man! Thank you! How's everything going over there? It's been a while!
     
  19. Whitecat

    Whitecat Goes home to Starla

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    187
    To put it bluntly, you're stuffed, unless you want to take a massive risk... Braz cannot travel without paperwork, full stop. Will a customs agent stop you and work out that it's Brazilian rosewood if you hand-carry it? Probably unlikely, but that's your risk to assume. If you ship it, I would expect more scrutiny depending on what country it's going to...

    Very few PRS guitars were ever supplied with CITES passports - they do it now occasionally on special builds, but there is a tonne of undocumented Braz out there. It's why so many guitars have 'Custom built for USA only' on the back of the headstock. Older ones won't even have that but they won't have the paperwork either, so in strict legal terms it's basically now stuck in whatever country it lives in.
     
  20. Guitarsan

    Guitarsan "I floor it. That’s technical talk." SRV

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    249
    Which is disappointing - other manufacturers do provide them, so it's not a big thing to do.
     

Share This Page