Bolt on neck question

[Alnus Rubra]

Beauty of tone is in the ear of the beholder!

 

[dcm_guitar]

My Les Paul has a maple neck, and it sounds like about any other mahogany neck Les Paul out there. My experience is that the joint is much, much more critical than the material. Furthermore, as an engineer, my experience with soundwave propagation is that any time a sound wave (or really any vibration) goes through an interface change, some is passed along, and some is reflected. The greater the difference in density, the more is reflected. Air is the least dense, so very little is transmitted into air compared to any other solid material. I don't care how tightly something is installed, there is an air gap there - that is why in ultrasound testing (be it babies or materials!) there is a gel substance placed between the probe and the material - otherwise, almost all of the energy would bounce back. So I'm not sure why Paul would state this, as it pretty much contradicts physics. Perhaps whoever was in the audience misunderstood him.

The data would suggest otherwise:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/neckJointSustain.htm
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/research/sustain.htm

It seems the material is more critical than the joint.

 

[Ovibos]

So I'm not sure why Paul would state this, as it pretty much contradicts physics. Perhaps whoever was in the audience misunderstood him.

Count me among those who've seen him speak and recall hearing him say this.

 

[jchix]

The data would suggest otherwise:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/neckJointSustain.htm
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/research/sustain.htm

It seems the material is more critical than the joint.

The data they were measuring in those articles was sustain and I think we are talking about tone. I would love to hear Paul's explanation why the CE 24 page boast about sparkly bolt-on necks when he thinks there is no difference. I would venture a guess that he would agree with his marketing department on that one.

 

[dcm_guitar]

The data they were measuring in those articles was sustain and I think we are talking about tone. I would love to hear Paul's explanation why the CE 24 page boast about sparkly bolt-on necks when he thinks there is no difference. I would venture a guess that he would agree with his marketing department on that one.

Those were just two of a number of studies trying to get to the answer about the impact if neck joint type. One of the abstracts specifically mentioned that listeners were unable to identify any differences based on joint type (tone or sustain).

It's interesting in that there are some objective metrics around sustain that are relatively easy to measure. Tone is such a subjective outcome, it would be harder to measure tonal differences. I suppose the latest version of Melodyne may be able to identify specific frequencies that may differ by joint type. I'm not really sure.

 

[drdoom8793]

Yeah, I've gotta lean away from Paul with this one. Before I bought my (older) CE24, I was comparing it with a Custom 24 with a maple neck. Same pickups (HFS/VB), same woods for body and neck. Realistically the only difference is the way the neck is mounted to the body. There was definitely a little more spank and sparkle to my ears with the CE24, which is why I grabbed it over the Custom.

 

[jchix]

I thought this article was well written and does a good job explaining why they sound different: https://www.guitarplayer.com/technique/unraveling-the-set-neck-vs-bolt-on-myth

 

[ScottR]

Man, I'm getting old. I would have bet money that the original post in this thread was not mine......

Kevin

When this kind of thing happens ...it's a glitch in the Matrix....I refuse to believe it's my age...yup, absolutely a glitch in the Matrix...

 

[merciful-evans]

I thought this article was well written and does a good job explaining why they sound different: https://www.guitarplayer.com/technique/unraveling-the-set-neck-vs-bolt-on-myth

Good article. Very informative.

 

[elvis]

Quite good article indeed.

My perspective has been that a set neck attaches to the entire thickness of the body while a bolt attaches to half the thickness. Further, the neck is attached to a diving board shaped section of the body. I think the article does a good job of describing how that affects tone. It's not the bolts themselves, they can be made very tight.

 

[rlw]

So I wodn’t be wasting my cash on a half price 2017 CE24 then?

 

[MichaelS]

When this kind of thing happens ...it's a glitch in the Matrix....I refuse to believe it's my age...yup, absolutely a glitch in the Matrix...

yea, like when I played Lenny Kravitz 'Are you gonna go my way' on youtube and there was no guitar solo. I wondered what the hell I have been playing all those years. Even on my iphone the solo was gone. had to dig up an old iphone 4 where the CD version was kept that I imported. I was really feeling the matrix glitch...

 

[shinksma]

The data would suggest otherwise:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/neckJointSustain.htm
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/research/sustain.htm

It seems the material is more critical than the joint.

The research paper summary states the following:

"A test instrument was built using neck through construction. ... The neck was sawed off and then attached with screws (bolt-on configuration) and audio recordings were again made in the same manner. The neck was then glued in place (set neck configuration) and allowed to dry, and audio recordings were again made. "

The neck was sawed off and then attached with screws? How can you do this when both bolt-on and glued-in necks use a neck pocket in the body?

Has anyone been able to access the full paper to see visually how they manufactured/assembled the test instrument configurations?

 

[jchix]

The neck was sawed off and then attached with screws

Can someone try this on a Private Stock and let us know if it changes the tone??

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I’ll let you ask Hunter!!

 

[elvis]

Many papers like this are written by misguided grad students. I wouldn't assume it's legit.

If they took a bolt on guitar and the glued the neck on without the bolts, they only measured the difference between bolts and glue. You'd really want to measure bolt to diving board vs. True set neck.

Meh, just play some.

 

[11top]

Can someone try this on a Private Stock and let us know if it changes the tone??

Ok. I did it.



Still sounds like a guitar.

 

[bodia]

Ok. I did it.



Still sounds like a guitar.

I don't think I'd seen this one before today (in the Monday PS thread). Totally in love with it.

 

[ScottR]

Ok. I did it.



Still sounds like a guitar.

That NECK just made me pee my pants... I'll bet it does sound like a guitar...yup, like Gods guitar...I'm afraid to see the top...

 

[ScottR]

yea, like when I played Lenny Kravitz 'Are you gonna go my way' on youtube and there was no guitar solo. I wondered what the hell I have been playing all those years. Even on my iphone the solo was gone. had to dig up an old iphone 4 where the CD version was kept that I imported. I was really feeling the matrix glitch...

Thank you sir...I rest my case...